Paul Craig Roberts: From Third World War will again be blamed Germany
Transcript of the interview with Dr. Paul Craig Roberts from Information War of radio Slobodnyvysielac.sk broadcasted on 03.13.2014. Dr. Roberts and N. Lichtner discussed US involvement in Ukraine.
Norbert Lichtner: Ladies and gentlemen, good evening. My first quest is Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Treasury Secretary of the United States Government. Good evening sear.
Dr. Paul Craig Roberts: Good evening
Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
It’s my pleasure
Thank you. I haven’t spoken to you for a while. How you been?
I have been fine, Norbert.
And busy as I know.
Yes, and I can granulate you on your radio show.
Oh, thank you very much. We have done quite a lot of work last year. As you know you knew when we were starting last January. It’s quite interesting. The thing I wanted to talk about tonight is US involvement in the Ukraine situation. You know me, I don’t want to anyone to call me a conspiracy theorist. Is there any chance that there is no US government involvement in the situation in Ukraine?
No, of course no (laugh of moderator). Only this was a coup orchestrated by Washington. It’s well known. The Assistant Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, has admitted that Washington spent 5 billion dollars creating agitation and protest groups in Ukraine in order to bring Ukraine into the European Union and into NATO.
Washington is being trying to capture Ukraine ever since 2004 when first Washington’s attempt, an Orange revolution, failed to deliver the Ukraine. And in 10 years since, they’ve spent $ 5.000.000.000 financing groups in Ukraine. And when the Ukrainian government decided that it was not in the economic interest of Ukraine to joint EU, because the economy was so involved with Russia, and it was the only real way for the Ukraine to exist, at that time Washington unleashed the protest.
They were quickly taken over by extreme right wing elements who introduced violence into the protest, who over through an elected government and Ukraine now has unelected government that represents a few, small interests of oligarchs and Washington.
As you know Yanukovych was no saint. So it wasn’t greed deal to get the people out in the streets. I think they could trick easily the population to go out. But, what do you think?
Few politicians are saints (moderator is laughing). And that have anything really to do with whether or not he was a saint. It was Washington’s intent to capture the Ukraine, put it into NATO so the Washington can put missile bases on the Russian border.
Washington also hoped to be able to evict Russia from its Black sea naval base in Crimea. Unfortunately Washington mismanaged the coup and the Crimeans are voting to leave the Ukraine where Khrushchev stuck them in the 1950s. It was never part of Ukraine.
I heard story that he has just too many vodkas and he gave it to them.
That’s what soldier Nielson said (in context “some army fairy tale”), but actually, I think it wasn’t done because Khrushchev was Ukrainian but the Communist Party and Soviet Union stuck eastern and southern portions of Russia into Ukrainian in order to war down the Nazi elements in Western Ukraine that had work for Hitler during WW2. They wanted put Russian population into the province in order to counterbalance the Nazi elements in the West of the Ukraine.
And they are still there, aren’t they?
From all appearances they are still there. Not only there, they’re now in the power.
Yeah. I wanted to ask you if you are talking about US involvement. I listen to your Secretary of State, Mr. Kerry, and with my Easter European thinking I couldn’t get it. Did he want Russia to invade Crimea or he didn’t want them to invade. I didn’t get it, can you explain it to us.
Yes, of course. He did not want Russia to invade until Crimea voted its independence and is about to vote to be reabsorbed in Russia. And now, Kerry is demanding that Russia send in its army and stop Crimeans from exercising their self determination.
Kerry has said, if the Russian don’t follow his orders and prevent Crimeans from voting on their own future, then Washington and its NATO puppet states will impose sanction on Russia.
You are an economist and really good one. I would like to ask you. If there are sanctions implied on Russia, it will hurt the US dollar. I think it will escalate, or speed up, the BRICS negotiations. It’s gonna hurt the US dollar. If I go further then only thing what I can see as a resolution for the US dollar falling down is a war. How do you see this?
Well that exactly it. Washington’s driving world to war. Washington knows that whatever damage sanctions may do to Russia it’s very small compared to the damage Russia would suffer from losing its warm water port on the Black sea.
And so the black sea port as well as the faith of millions of Russian in Eastern and Southern Ukraine is far more important to the Russian government than sanctions. And Washington knows that, so by threatening sanctions is completely pointless. The whole purpose is to drive toward war because Russia then will respond to Washington sanctions with sanctions of its own and the western media will stress the Russian impose sanctions.
They will ignore that Washington started the fight and they will continue to demonize Russia thus preparing the American population for war. And that’s where it’s driving. The Neoconservatives, who control the government, and Washington have an ideology of American hegemony over the world. Russia, China and Iran are in the way. So here I see the chance to knock Russia out or to degrade its strategic (…) by putting anti-ballistic missiles on the Russian border. They’re locked on that agenda.
They’re driving toward that. Therefore they’re reckless and dangerous. I’m convicted that Washington will drive this to war, especially Norbert, now that Merkel and Germany has given up her doubts about sanctions and joined the American side. So now, Europe has again failed its people, they failed in the leadership role. Europe is enabling Washington to drive the world to war.
Sanctions will cost Germans around 300.000 jobs. But since you mentioned these neocons, somewhere around the time you were working for a government during the Reagan presidency, they popped up at that time I think, and they have been trying to do things what we see happening for about last ten, thirteen years since then. Do you remember or could you tell us something about the time when they were popping up?
Yes, they appeared first during Reagan’s first therm. They are rapidly anti-Russian. They were sort of accepted by the normal conservatives, because they were so anti-Russian, but they cause a lot of difficulties for President Reagan. They got involved in Nicaragua-Iran controversy and they caused so much trouble that the Reagan fired every one of them.
He did and not only that. Some of them were prosecuted and convicted
Did they serve time as well?
But they were pardoned when George Herbert Walker Bush succeeded Reagan. He was Reagan vice-president. He was elected when Reagan second term ended. And this Bush, the father of George W. Bush, pardoned the neocons who had been convicted.
They didn’t really make comeback until the second term of the Clinton regime. They were behind the American-NATO attack on Serbia and the theft of Kosovo from Serbia. Then they emerged in total control in the George W. Bush administration and they are still in control of the Obama administration.
So it doesn’t matter whether the Democratic Party or Republicans are in congress or which representatives are there. They’re still in power.
Right, it doesn’t matter who is there. You see the national security adviser Suzan Rice is a neocon. The Assistant Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, who planned and organized the American coup in Kiev, she is a neocon.
She is married to another neocon Robert Kagan. Samantha Powers is also a neocon, married to another neocon. So the principle players in the Ukrainian take-over by Washington are neoconservatives.
All right, do you see any similarities between Kosovo and Crimea, let’s say.
Yeah… ehm… no. You see, we stole Kosovo. We did it, we stole it. Washington stole it. In Crimea the people themselves are traditionally Russian. That was era of Russia that Khrushchev stuck into the Ukraine.
And when this coup government emerged in Kiev they started making very threatening statements to Russians. They banned use of language, they destroyed Russian war monuments. It made the people In Crimea says „We don’t wanna be part of this“.
So they took their fate in their own hands. Russian didn’t do anything. The Crimeans voted to end association with Ukraine and on Sunday they are going to decide whether to stay in independent country or join back to Russia. Poll show it will be an overwhelming vote to rejoin Russia. So in that sense it’s totally different.
Does Obama say that Crimea vote is not legal?
Yes, that’s what he says. But what is he saying is – it’s OK if Americans steal provinces from countries and set them up as puppet states. It is not legal for people to exercise self-determination. Well of course, Obama is lying through his teeth. He is an idiot. He is a liar.
What he says it totally false. Everybody that knows anything knows that he is totally false. Under the UN rules, under the International Court of Justice Crimea is totally legal to determine its own fate.
Now, If you could have a crystal ball in front of you, or according the analysis what you’ve done, what do you think how is gonna play out this situation, because all the sanctions and everything what neocons are doing now will hurt the United States, and it will hurt badly.
Yes, but you see it doesn’t matter to them.
They don’t care?
They don’t care. What mater to them is obvious. I’ve already told you, Norbert. What they want it to weaken Russia. They want Russia unable to stand up to America, unable to get in Washington’s way in Syria, unable to get in Washington’s way in Iran.
They want up the BRICS before they can form an independent currency unit, and dumb the dollar. They’re after American power, American hegemony over other counties.
Do they think they will succeed?
I don’t know. It is going to the war. I think there will be no winners. It’s gonna be WW3 because ones West starts this war, none of sites can afford to lose. So nuclear weapons will be used. So what you have are insane people in Washington driving the world to WW3 and you have insane leaders in Europe enabling the Washington to take this step.
All Merkel had to do was say no to sanctions. That would be the end of crisis. Instead she gave in bribes and threats and lined up with Washington. So it is just like WW1 – you can sit here and watch what is happening and you can see it is leading directly to war and everybody is full of delusions.
All right, do you think they think that they can contain a nuclear war in Europe and Asia and they wouldn’t touch the United States at all?
They think that they can win the nuclear war.
It’s gonna cost millions of American lives as well, millions of them.
Well, I don’t think they care, but they not believe that. Recently, there was a paper published by 2 of them who say that Russian capabilities are so backward compared to Americans that we can very easily have the first strike. Nuclear attack on Russia… (call was interrupted)… now they don’t intent for the war to start right now.
They wanted to start after they capture Ukraine, after they have anti-ballistic missile bases on Russia’s border to match the ones in Poland. Match the ones they going to pun in Georgia when they stuck Georgia into NATO. So the Russians are totally surrounded by IBMS.
They hope then that what the result will be is that Russia will simply decide that it isn’t in a position to stand up and accept American leadership. I think what will happen instead is it than in Ukraine Washington will push the issue so hard and so fast that the war will start before they expect.
That's a danger. If people in the world have any awareness, they would be in the streets violently protesting what Washington is doing, because what Washington is doing is clear – they are driving the world to war. It’s not a question of sanctions and 300.000 jobs.
That’s all irrelevant. What the real issue is - we all gonna be blowed up, vaporized, because Washington is in hands of such insane criminals. Look what they’ve done in 21st century. How many countries they destroyed already: Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya...
If you look at Libya, it’s hundreds times worse than under Kaddafi.
Well, of course. They continue this violence everywhere. Yemen, Pakistan, Somalia. They now have an African Command. They’ve got American troops in Africa. They’re conducting NATO exercises all around Russia’s borders as we speak. They are crazy. They are insane and everybody is delusional. You have no idea what is going happen to you.
I do understand what they want and what they are, but what I do not understand is… Look, I know hundreds thousands of Americans. Americans are great people and they are, actually, some most of them, or most of them are same brainwashed as we are. What about the American public. Don’t they see what is happening?
No, they have no source of information.
All right, so the mainstream media are brainwashing them as well.
Of course, official line here, all you hear from print or TV media, is that Russia invaded the Ukraine and stole Crimea.
That’s what they claim?
That’s what everybody believes. That’s what their told every day all day long.
We have a border with Ukraine so they cannot say that here but the propaganda is very similar as well. We are in NATO as well.
Yes, of course, you are an American puppet state.
Yes, we are (laugh of moderator).
That too is a violation of the Americans agreements with Russia. The US government told Gorbachev that it would never take NATO into Eastern Europe but now all the Easter Europe is in NATO.
So everything what West says is a lie. You can’t trust anything they say and they have been driving toward reducing Russia to state that has to accept Washington’s orders ever since the Soviet Union collapsed.
Do you think that the entire thing was premeditated? Ukraine was the third most powerful country regarding nuclear power and they disarmed Ukraine. Do you think this was premeditated move for what is happening now?
They have been determined to weaken Russia ever since Reagan left the White House, because Reagan view was “we gonna end cold war, end the conflict and gone on by our business” but after Reagan left, 3 years after he left office, the Soviet Union collapsed.
And then government in Washington said: Oh look, now we can take advantage of this, and achieve our hegemony over the world because the constrain on our power which was the Soviet Union collapsed. So let’s quickly break up the Soviet empire. Let’s surround whatever survives with military bases.
We don’t care what agreements Reagan made with Gorbachev. They both are out of office. That has been going on since 1991. As I already told you, since 2004, when the American orchestrated Orange revolution failed in Ukraine, the Washington government spent 5 bil. USD subverting the Ukraine.
They have got all kinds of NGOs in Ukraine which organize dissident and dissatisfaction and build propaganda for joining the EU. That has been going on now for 10 years. It’s now partially succeeded. The outcome remains to be seen. The real crisis will come in East Ukraine, because it’s also Russia.
If violence is used against the Russian population in Eastern Ukraine in order to stop their protests against Kiev that will bring in the Russian army.
Unfortunately. Dr. Roberts, if you could spend like 5 or 6 more minutes I have got some question from listeners, if it’s all right?
Mario says: Good evening, thank you very much Dr. Roberts for an interview in Slobodnyvysielac.sk radio. Many thanks. I have 2 questions. First: Is there any involvement of US government in the mass media manipulation in the United States?
Yes, the independent US media seems to exist in last year of the Clinton regime. The Clinton regime permitted 5 mega companies to consolidate the entire American media.
They bought up every little radio stations, everything, little small papers.
They were all bought up by 5 big companies. So all their broadcast licenses are dependent on government whether it renews them or not. So they cannot go against government.
Same situation is here, but not us.
And they are no longer run by journalist. They are run by corporate advertising executives and former government officials. So they’re not run by journalist and they don’t practice journalism. They serve as a ministry of propaganda. Gerald Selente, he has named them presstitutes.
Yes, it’s well known term in our country as well. Now, since you mentioned the media and since I got you on, what happened to this “Red Code” who left from CNN?
I don’t know.
Why did he leave?
Well, I’m not there and don’t know the person. So, we would have to ask the person and see what that person says, but real journalists are frustrated because they can’t report. They have to give propaganda. This didn’t just happen all in ones. They’re certain people with status and prestige. You have to silence them slowly. You can just all of sudden silence them. They’ve been them silencing now slowly since 1997 – 1998. And now it’s impossible. They aren’t anymore journalists. The ones which are still there can take it anymore and leave.
But what I heard of Pierce Morgan was that the ratings went down rapidly.
Who knows? I mean it doesn’t matter about Pierce Morgan. What matter is, that the West doesn’t have an independent media. It has a ministry of propaganda and they follow Washington’s line.
Now, the second question from this listener is: How deep is Z. Brzezinsky’s Global Power Structure involved in current foreign policy?
There is a difference between Brzezinski and neocons. Brzezinski is Polish. He hates the Russians. He goes back to the Cold War Era where the whole struggle was, how we could somehow (…) the Soviets and constrain them in some way. Well, that’s different from the neocons which is we don’t have the Soviets so that releases us to establish our hegemony over the entire world.
So Brzezinski wanted to break up Soviets Union, the neocons want to have all world in a same puppet state role as all of Europeans. Who is the German Chancellor reporting to? To German people? No, she reports to Washington! Who is your government report to? Do you think your government is independent and sovereign (laugh of moderator)? No, they reports to Washington.
They want the same as what they want to China to do. They want Russia to do. They want Iran to do. That’s what they are striking for. Although the Brzezinsky views are compatible with the Neoconservative ones in many ways, the Neoconservative ones go far beyond them.
Not just breaking up the Soviet Union or Russia. They want the whole world in their pocket. It’s empire how they see it. The Neoconservative call “America is the indispensible country, the exceptional country”. This is a language of Adolf Hitler. This is way how he spoke to Germans.
Yeah, I didn’t want to say it, but you are right.
Well, is obvious, Norbert. It’s totally obvious. They speak same but instead of Germans being the chosen race, it’s now the Americans. They are exceptional. They are indispensible. What it means is that they don’t have to obey the law. They don’t have to pay any attention to international law or even to the domestic law because they are above the law.
See, but what history shows us, Roman Empire, Napoleon and Hitler. They have all ended up really badly.
Well, that’s right but you see that they had strong opponents. But who has strong opponents ones Russia is reduced to nothing and Iran and China. Where is the opponent?
That’s a next question from Alexander. He is asking about China. What do you think they gonna to do?
They gonna to do the same thing. They’re already funding money into dissident groups in China. China has Muslim population in some areas. They are building new naval and air bases. They’re surrounding China in pacific with that bases. They will control the straits through which China trade flows to the resources. They will gradually try to cut China off from energy resources.
One of the reason they over through Kaddafi was to destroy Chinese energy investments in oil in Eastern Libya. One of the reasons they go after Iran is that China gets 20% of its energy from Iran. So, if they can bring Russia into the (…) they can stop Russian oil going to China. It is the same think they did to Japan in 1930s. Cut them off the resources. They strangle the economy in that way. That’s what they are trying to do. They’ll use a military bases to try to intimidate China.
They’ll spread troubles within China by organizing “human rights” groups, “teaching democracy.” They’ll support the Muslim elements and encourage them towards terrorist acts. China, I think, is being rather careless. They let American banks came in. They let the Rockefeller Foundation came in and establish a university. They can brainwash the Chinese students.
When you’re careless like this and you’re dealing with Americans, you really give them an opportunity to create enormous fifth column within your county. That’s what China is doing. So China can fall to.
All right, Mario says: Additionally I have 3 more questions. Is there any opposition group, power in the USA which is able to change or stop US foreign policy?
Is the any difference between Republicans or the Democrats in terms of foreign policy?
Are there any US oligarchs behind US foreign policy, behind the scene? Who are they?
Well, not it the sense of Ukraine or Russia before Putin. The oligarchs here are mainly concern with building bigger fortunes and have other ways of doing that. The oligarchs will be interested somehow in Ukraine because it’s a chance to loot. But we don’t have oligarch in sense of Ukraine or Russia.
You have corporations and families.
We have corporations. We don’t have individuals capable of having their own militias, of ruling their own cities or province. Their money is generally tight up in all kinds of financial instruments. Their wealth is counting up the values of paper assets. Is not the same as oligarchs that are now ruling the Russian cities in Ukraine.
What about our old friend Schwartz György a.k.a. George Soros? Is he involved in this now?
He might think yes, but not in any meaningful or determine way.
So you think that the neocons are running the show now?
Of course they are. Sure. I told who they are: National Security Adviser, State Department, Samantha Powers, they control the media. What have left of conservative magazines are all neocons.
Last question from Igor is: What happened to US journalism from era of Water Gate? At that time the journalists went off politicians and it’s not happening now anymore.
Well, I’ll have already answered that. I said that in late 1990s the Clinton administration permitted 5 huge companies to buy up the media and consolidate it. It’s no longer in hands of journalists; it’s in the hands of former government officials, corporate advertising executives.
Companies are huge. Their values are due to broadcast licenses issued by the federal government. So go against government, their licenses aren’t renewed and hundreds millions of dollars the company represents goes away to zero. They don’t risk their wealth by going against the government.
Here is one more question form Jaro: Is there any chance to turn this course around the United States?
I don’t think so. I think that Putin was hoping that West Europe would turn around by refusing to cooperate with what obviously will lead to war. But Europe gave in to the Americans so I don’t think is any way to stopping it in this point.
Is there any group in the Congress, or on the Senate, or some of the states who would oppose this course of actions?
Polls already show that American people are overwhelmingly against the US meddling in Ukraine. They’re against sanctions. They had 14 years of constant wars they don’t want anymore. But they have no influence whatsoever on the Government. The Government ignores them.
Only way how could people stop it would be if they went in millions in the streets and sustain violent protest. They have to be armed because Homeland Security now has troops, tanks and will use them against the people. Essentially, the American public is (…), has no information and has no organization. The NSA spies on everybody’s communication of every kind. If you try to organize something they would pick you up. Don’t think is any kind of democracy or self-determination here. It’s gone. It’s none here. And nobody… no force exists that can stop this moves towards WW3.
It could be stopped only by Europe. The German Chancellor could stop it simply by saying no to sanctions. But she didn’t. So just as Germans are blamed for WW1, they’re blamed for WW2, they gonna be blamed for WW3, because they would enable Washington to push the issue into this dangerous and reckless directions. As long as Europe enables the Washington this risk will continue to rise.
But the American people by doing nothing are risking that the war will be brought to your soil.
But they do not know that, Norbert, they do not know. I told them, ones who read me know but that’s not entire population, I mean. I told you already. They don’t have information. The media is not telling. The media is not saying “wait a minute, this could be dangerous”. They’re all saying: Stick to the Russians, teach them a lesson.
What lesson? That’s crazy.
We have a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He is prepared to send troops, army. They claim that we have an agreement with Ukraine. It goes back to 1992 or something that we guaranty integrity of their country.
Is there any agreement like that?
They said there is.
Have their showing you or to anyone?
Look, I don’t have time to look at all the agreements. What matter, Norbert, if they want to do it, they’ll said they have it.
I know. I was trying to be politically correct. I know how it works unfortunately.
There is not anything that I know left. Well, Putin may simply say I rather surrender than having a nuclear war. Maybe that’s all happen. Russian may simple surrender. They say: OK, we give up. It’s all what I can think up at this point how to stop it.
All right Dr. Roberts. Thank you very much for your time.
You are welcome, good bye.
Slovenský prepis rozhovoru:
Interviewee: Paul Graig Roberts